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Thursday, October 13, 2005

You could just feel it... 
You could just feel how badly the media wanted to believe the President's videoconference with 10 U.S. soldiers was "staged." And dammit, if the media wanted it to be staged, then staged it will be.

WASHINGTON - It was billed as a conversation with U.S. troops, but the questions President Bush asked on a teleconference call Thursday were choreographed to match his goals for the war in Iraq and Saturday's vote on a new Iraqi constitution.


Of course. And I have an agenda, distributed in advance, listing what I want to talk about when I hold a company level training meeting. These guys understand that. I understand that. The AP, apparently, doesn't. I guess none of their reporters ever interviewed a source and told them what they were interested in discussing.

And just one question: "hailed" by whom?

Barber said the president was interested in three topics: the overall security situation in Iraq, security preparations for the weekend vote and efforts to train Iraqi troops.



A brief rehearsal ensued.

"OK, so let's just walk through this," Barber said. "Captain Kennedy, you answer the first question and you hand the mike to whom?"

"Captain Smith," Kennedy said.

"Captain. Smith? You take the mike and you hand it to whom?" she asked.

"Captain Kennedy," the soldier replied.

And so it went.

"If the question comes up about partnering — how often do we train with the Iraqi military — who does he go to?" Barber asked.

"That's going to go to Captain Pratt," one of the soldiers said.

"And then if we're going to talk a little bit about the folks in Tikrit — the hometown — and how they're handling the political process, who are we going to give that to?" she asked.


Well, think about it, for a second. The President wanted to talk to people who were knowledgeable on these three specific subjects. Wouldn't a prudent advance person want to get the mic to the right person smoothly in case the subject comes up?

Of course she would.

Does that mean that the soldiers' comments were insincere? No. There is no reason to believe anyone was up there lying. But that is what the AP would like to imply.

The president told them twice that the American people were behind them.

"You've got tremendous support here at home," Bush said.

Less than 40 percent in an AP-Ipsos poll taken in October said they approved of the way Bush was handling Iraq. Just over half of the public now say the Iraq war was a mistake.


Ok, but what percentage of the American people favor an immediate pullout, you dolts? Isn't that the most relevant stat here? What percentage of the people oppose the troops? (In reality, the answer is more than anyone on the left wants to admit, though still a small minority of the population.) The AP, however, is Hell-bent on undercutting the president, here (and basically giving the troops a snide and subtle "fuck you" in the process), but what they are really giving is poll numbers that reflect support for the President. Not support for the troops.

Most editors I wrote for as a Time Inc. wretch would have caught that, and never let me get away with it. Not so at the AP I guess.

Oh, and here's the scuzziest bit of all:

Paul Rieckhoff, director of the New York-based Operation Truth, an advocacy group for U.S. veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, denounced the event as a "carefully scripted publicity stunt." Five of the 10 U.S. troops involved were officers, he said.


If Operation Truth is simply "an advocacy group for U.S. veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan," then I'm the Queen of Sheba. Their website says they're "nonpartisan." But look who's doing the fundraising: Randi Rhodes, Jenine Garofolo, Al Franken, Air America, and Tim Robbins.

This reporter is remarkably uncurious about the sources she seeks for comment.



"If he wants the real opinions of the troops, he can't do it in a nationally televised teleconference," Rieckhoff said. "He needs to be talking to the boots on the ground and that's not a bunch of captains."


Yeah. I guess we're all idiots. None of us know what's going on about anything. Actually, there could not have been more than 4 captains, since only five of the ten were officers, and one was a lieutenant. The remainder were NCOs. Yeah, I guess NCOs never talk to troops either.

Some advocate.

Splash, out

Jason

UPDATE: Check out the morons in the discussion board! Some of them are calling for the officers and NCOs who participated in the conference call to be reprimanded and discharged.

Yep. That's support for the troops alright, leftie style.

Comments:
Let me be brief.

I HATE the f****** media. They are perfidious amoralists.

Whatever did we do to deserve these useless creatures,and who will save us from their unceasing defeatism?
 
Hey Dougie, I will, I will. Watch, I'll invent something that I'll call the internet!

There, see it working?

Algore says (As he rips open his shirt to display a large yellow I).

The foregoing was a random slam at a useless defeated creature. Any commenters used were only for illustration. Carry on. :)
 
QUESTION: How were they selected, and are their comments to the president pre-screened, any questions or anything...

MCCLELLAN: No.


QUESTION: Not at all?


MCCLELLAN: This is a back-and-forth
 
I guess when the left whined about how Bush has given the least press conferences in presidential history, they didn't want anything other than a hastly assembled random interview with Bush-haters. The absolute minor amount of preperation might ruin the "credibility" of the event.
 
this is an administration that has already been busted for propaganda, caught paying off reporters, and caught letting a gay male hooker into the white house press corps on a day pass FOR A YEAR

and you want to blame the "media" who were invited to this fiasco for telling us what they saw?

queen, you crack me up.

go to msnbc and watch their report, pay close attention to where Ms. Barber coaches them on what to do if the prez goes "off script".

watch how the one soldier rehearses what he will say.

so we have a script, a rehearsal, and coaching

sorry ms. sheeba, but your boy got caught staging an event.

mission accomplished.

but whats worse is you got caught being just another dittohead blaming the media instead of the Bush machine.

is it really that hard to be objective and say, yeah im pro-Bushie but he got caught - again?

i guess so.
 
This is very strange.

The President says that the American people solidly support the troops.

And the AP basically claims that the President is lying/wrong, by claiming that the public opposes the war.

But I thought the Left has been consistently claiming that you can oppose the mission and support the troops?

What am I missing here?
 
"Script, rehearsal and coaching"

Newflash: If you were going to talk to the President, don't you think you'd at least practice saying what you were going to say to him?

Another thing, a captain isn't -that- high a rank is it? I'm not sure about my foreign armies (I'm from Australia) but isn't a captain involved in things like battalion headquarters, company command etc? The 'boots on the ground'?
 
Wow, you people are attacking the media because the White House staged the troop event?

Pathetic...Utterly pathetic.
 
Now, I know that liberals are quite possibly the dumbest people on the face of the earth, so I'll use small words and simple concepts to avoid scaring you.

The military reherses EVERYTHING. Read the fucking transcript, you pointy-headed morons. "IF he asks about this, who does he go to?" IF this topic comes up, who's going to speak?" IF, IF, IF, IF, IF! Being that you're nothing but a bunch of fucking retarded jackasses who know exactly jackshit about the military, I'll try to beat this clue into your rock-hard heads just this once. Figuring out who will speak on a certain subject IS NOT the same as receiving questions and pre-written answers. Figuring out who your subject matter experts are IS NOT the same as repeating answers verbatim. Rehearsing for what MIGHT happen IS NOT the same as rehearsing a pre-determined outcome. I guess the military can't rehearse a battle without the actual combat being "staged" in your mind, can it?

Now shut the fuck up and go back to a subject that you actually know something about. In your case tony, that would be bong water and twinkies.
 
"This reporter is remarkably uncurious about the sources she seeks for comment."

Exactly how is this unusual? Petula Dvorak at the WaPo couldn't be bothered to Google the "first time protestor" ANSWER sent her to. When she was caught, the paper's reaction was a "modified limited hangout" -- the paper admitted the life-long protestor had been to "several smaller protests" but didn't bother with the quote from the same woman saying she had 30 years of "activism" experience.
 
Raging_Dave:

Well, there's the dumb ones and the ones who HOPE everyone's dumb enough to believe their claims.
 
One would think the libs, who are always crying about "no plan for the war," would be impressed that the Whitehouse clearly HAS learned how to plan.
 
"...is it really that hard to be objective and say, yeah im pro-Bushie but he got caught - again?"

Tony, is it really that hard for you to just say, "Yeah, I hate our President, our country, and especially those damned soldiers, even though I wouldn't have the sack to ever do what any of them do for me."?
 
I suppose that the MSM and liberals would expect the Commander in Chief to tell the troops that "No one's behind them at home"? and, "BTW: your dog died!"

Army Captains serve as Company Commanders who are usually out in the field with their troops. To imply that Captains (and their NCOs) are not "boots on the ground" shows an incredible ignorance of the military and its operation, but then when were these reporters out in the field?
 
Well, Tony Pierce's view ONLY makes sense if you read "rehearsed" to be the same thing as "staged."

But the military ALWAYS rehearses a briefing to any VIP. If a 1 star general came by our battalion and asked for a briefing, my battalion XO would get everyone together and go over what happens when.

That doesn't mean we pull any punches, and it doesn't mean someone writes a 'script' for our briefing. I think people who think it does are just showing their ignorance of military subculture. No captain would read off a script handed to him by any advance person. Almost all of us would make a show of crumpling it up and throwing it at her feet.

Besides. I'm jealous. Tony met Zulieka, of Zulieka Unstrung, who's my fiddle-blogging hero! :)

Jason
 
At least US soldiers are real people, doing a real job and actually believe in the job they were asked to do, unlike Mother Sheehan who was simply STAGED a media manufactured fantasy for the benefit of satisifying their out-of-this world Moonbat followers.

American media really should get out of the Hollywood fantasy business, that industry is already covered by losers Moore and Clooney.
 
Jason,

Perfect analysis of this one. Good job.

Heaven forbid we should allow our 29 yr old Captains to look good on national TV. That might mean people might actually think they were intelligent Americans instead of demented baby-killers too dumb to be able to get a "normal" job and, therefore, reduced to the Army as their only possibile livelihood. And we wouldn't want that to happen --- at least not in our American newspaper or on our American TV news.

Press on, son.

Subsunk
 
I agree with the comment about there being a predominance of captains in the group. How could the Prez get the facts about what was going on without the boots-on-the ground privates?

I think that instead of interviewing senators and senior staffers about the SCOTUS hearings the press should also get oppinions from the congressional janators and maybe the lady that runs the copy machine and of course a security guard of two. (They are all more coherent and intellegent than Teddy Kennedy.)

Jack Haley
 
As a company commander (as a Captain) in Iraq, I went on patrol everyday minus a handful when my company had patrols off the forward operating base, which in an infantry rifle company, is everyday. Of those few days where I didn't go out on patrol, one was due to having fluids come out of both ends of me the entire day and the other 2 or 3 were during change of command inventories, where I was busy preparing the company for its transition to the new commander. So, captains are very much a "boots on the ground" demographic. Furthermore, a majority of local Iraqi-American interface happens at the company grade officer level (lieutenants and captains), so that is the idea demographic to ask questions to if you want to get a "boots on the ground" perspective of Iraqi-American relations.

As far as "scripting," this charge is ludicrous. If you look at televised talk shows, it's standard practice to discuss topics, and in many cases, the shows go one step further by getting potential responses. Ever wonder how a talk show guests can answer a question and file footage that exactly matches his answer magically appears on the screen? Check this out the next time you watch O'Reilly, Larry King, Scarborough, Chris Matthews, etc.

The rehearsal was clearly targeted at ensuring that the flow of the event was maintained. It also clearly indicates that the content of the answers wasn't screened, but from reading the MSM's coverage certainly doesn't convey that reality.
 
Not only does the Army rehearse every event, but guess what? Corporate events get rehearsed, too. Subject Matter Experts spend huge amounts of time anticipating senior management's questions and preparing answers on important issues.

On camera interviews are rehearsed, too. Not just the important ones, but even the little ones. My wife and I were interviewed in a short segment for a local station during the war, to talk about how we felt about our son being there. The reporter described the interview to us in advance, told us what he would say, told us the questions he would ask and found out which of us would answer. No big deal. It just makes sense. Why stumble and fumble through an interview or a presentation, or a briefing, when a little organization can make the communication more effective. It's process. The content is not changed, but the efficiency with which the message is elicited allows the message to come across in a limited time frame.

But to those with an agenda, any excuse for criticism, no matter how inane, has to work.
 
The NY Times took the bait. But this is fascinating. There is no byline here. Why not?
Also there's a review of the soldiers' performance: "awkward." Is it possible that these guys aren't to videoconferencing?
 
****One of the soldiers said she was told what was possible to be asked .... this from MSNBC breaking ... the anchor chick says maybe this will stop the controversy.****


THEY STARTED THIS CONTROVERSY

Yesterday Alex Witt said, well maybe the breaking news about the soldier saying she was not prepped will stifle the frenzy that Bush's handlers had set the entire thing up. It is wrong, it is irresponsible. Further when I googled the other articles by the same AP person, none, not a one framed the article in the same way MSNBC did .... they made this a story and it wasn't. It would not shock me if this overtakes the rest of the days news.

Ron Reagan's son, should apologize, to the viewers. He was gleeful, using this to say this is why the American people are disenchanted with this White House. He said "this looks practiced" to me. He said "they were handpicked to be on his side." He went on to say "like those fake town hall meetings." To make such remarks without ... not one verification of the allegations he was making is irresponsible journalism, expected irresponsibility and wrong.

His side kick Monica Crowley did her best to put this allegation into perspective, she said "3 topics, one, overall security in Iraq, secondly how those troops were preparing for that upcoming vote on and progress in training of Iraqi troops." She then said, "limited time with the president, you have extended satellite delay, who was prepared to answer in a succinct way". "American President's do this all the time, this is nothing unusual Ron."


Last night:

Now it seems to go from what I thought was better to worse at least that is the impression given on FOX news minutes ago where they just discussed the video conference with the troops.
[the following is from the segment on Shep's show]
Hot at the Pentagon for what happened just before taping of the video. Senior official is livid over the handling of the troops just before the airing of the video conference.

Military brass saying soldiers as props and that it was scripted and rehearsed.

However White House and Pentagon say it was NOT rehearsed. Pentagon official drilled them for 45 minutes prior to the airing and in her own words drilled on the likely questions and scripted responses. But the small bit they played I did not get that from the footage.

Apparent coaching outrageous, folks at the White House walking around shaking their heads thinking how badly it went.

I am sure this was well intended to boost the morale of the troops. But as some have said (from a previous thread)it did not come off very well, the delays and such.

Evidently FOX is also using the term "hand picked soldiers", as well.

Today

What was to be a positive event has turned into a nightmare. Thanks to our main stream media.
 
This is a non-issue people! Seriously, Bush has been doing propaganda throughout his administration ( http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001219925) ...Why should we care now right?

/sarcasm

You guys really are a fucking joke. The only thing stopping me from laughing is the thought that stupid fucktards like yourself actually exist in this country.

Here are some words I'm sure you'll understand--I know Cheney does...

Go Fuck Yourselves.
 
When the President of a several $$ billion a rear company came to vist my project (for an upgrade - near redesign actually - for a military radio system for HF) you can bet we practiced for a week. All experiments were shut down for two days before the visit to make sure no one screwed the prototype.

How much more for the President of a $10 trillion company.

BTW the visit to my project was not all serious. I wore my Grateful Dead T.
 
Also, quite saying the questions weren't staged, they were.

Listen for yourselves jackasses:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4957379
 
quit*
 
Disenfranchised voter, you are stuck on stupid.

Nobody is saying the soldiers didn't get a heads-up about what questions they would be asked. That's a basic courtesy routinely extended from a higher echelon to a lower one. And it's done to INCREASE the validity and the quality of the answers.

Simply providing this courtesy does not make for a "staged" event.

A rehearsed event, yes. A staged event, no.

Jason
 
Phone-in teleconfrences never make for good TV. The one between Bush, Guliani and Pataki back in 2001 was a bit silly and this one was marginally better. It was an easy opportunity for Bush's opponents to get in a bunch of cheap shots.

I will be more impressed when we see the positive results of the upcoming election, and the rebirth of a great nation and a great people. I, unlike some of my anti-war "friends", believe that the US military should not be used exclusively to only fight for the freedoms of white people. In this case, arabs and muslims deserve a chance to be free as well.

No one can justify the non-war related deaths of 1.5 million children in Iraq between 1991 and 2003 (UNICEF numbers, not mine) so that the UN, France and Russia could pocket billions of dollars in oil contracts with Saddam. So call me weak for supporting the troops and the war and this President, but at least I care about the fate of the Iraqi people.

In response to the Disenfranchised Voter's post, I remind everyone that it is hard work trying to help people un-fuck themselves.
 
disenfranchized: here's the difference: Rehearsed is what the President's conference was; Staged is when a reporter gives a soldier a question to ask the Sec Def.
 
We have a new standard on what is "staged" news. I look forward to it being applied universially.

1. "Hardball"/Aaron Brown/Keith Oberman/MeetThePress etc.: Are guests told what the host wants to talk about before air time? Yes? Staged.

2. WaPo/NYT/AP/CNN: Are sources asked questions cold? In other words do reporters ever discuss the story with a source before the source is quoted? Yes? Staged.

3. Do reporters ever read back the quote to sources and discuss whether the quote could be "revised".For whatever reason: for brevity, for dramatic punch, or for just clarity sake is the quote ever revised? Yes? Staged.

In fact isn't the essence of news --especially electronic news-- the fact that it is all very carefully choreographed? Yes? Staged.

Again, I look forward to this new standard being universially applied.
 
You pathetic stooges.

The soldiers were hand-picked to say exactly what the White House wanted them to say. They rehearsed the questions AND the answers (check the Olbermann tape).

Now you're pathetically parsing the difference between a photo op that's staged as opposed to one that's rehearsed with questions and answers cleared with the DoD.

Using the troops as photo op props, then sending them off to fight and die in your discretionary war. That must be support for the troops, rightie style, Jason.
 
You guys really are a fucking joke. The only thing stopping me from laughing is the thought that stupid fucktards like yourself actually exist in this country.

You know what the fucking joke is? It's "fucktards" like me who protect you and all the rights that you take for granted. THAT is the fucking joke, you moronic shitstain.

Now, I know that actually listening to people who have been through this type of event before would completely ruin your argument, which is why you choose to ignore them and concentrate on your pathetic little theory. But you and every other idiot with a grudge against Bush are showing just how unhinged you truly are when you ignore EVERYTHING that people here have said.

As for Cheney's Third dipshit, have you ever heard of OPSEC? There are things that soldiers can and cannot say on TV or radio due to operational security! The DoD has to make sure that the soldiers are not giving out sensitive information, you fucking dolt! Notice that you yourself state the questions and answers did not come from the White House, and you shitstains are claiming that this was a White House photo-op!

JUST WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU NUMBSKULLS SMOKING????

Grow the fuck up and then try again, you jackass.
 
I would like to see Meet the Press, Face the Nation, This Week, the Today Show, Good Morning America or any of the nightly network news broadcasts on the air without a production meeting.
 
For some of you younger guys, I listen to the sort of shit spewed by idiots like cheney's whatever--I came back from viet nam to pot smoking assholes calling me a baby killer. And when we pulled out of Viet Nam, millions of vietnamese died or were reeducated--and then there was those brave agrarian reformers in Cambodia--Pol Pot--

And now we are hearing the same sort of crap from the poster who believes that somehow it must be OK for muslim fanatics to kill kids as long as its in the name of opposing the US. Their sense of humanity is totally warped--My only hope is that volunteer to become human shields for Hamas--

The fact that American soldiers die for these idiots really makes me want to puke--

End of rant. Now to the substance of this comment:

If Cheney's 3d thinks that rehearsing and staging are the same, then the idiot needs to repeat third grade. What an inhumane, unfeeling, and self centered idiot.
 
And since the Left seems to constantly want to embarass itself, I'll do my best to give them a hand.

In the Bush/Iraq segment, Today screened footage indicating that prior to engaging in a video conversation with President Bush, soldiers on the ground in Iraq were given tips by a Department of Defense official.

But the only advice that the official was shown as giving was a suggestion to one solider to "take a little breath" before speaking to the president so he would actually be speaking to him. It was also stated that some of the soldiers practiced their comments so as to appear as articulate as possible. But there was no indication, or even allegation, that the soldiers were coached as to the substance of their comments or in any way instructed what to say.


There's even video at the link. Again, a non-controversy that the Left has turned into a display of their own stupidity, ignorance and hatred.

They make it almost too easy.
 
Raging Dave,

1. I'm pleased to see you agree that you're a fucktard.

2. You seem to think that because the photo op coach was from DoD and not the White House, that means it wasn't a White House photo op. Well, that sort of distinction might fool the retarded regulars who read this blog, but if you don't think it was all orchestrated from the WH, then perhaps you can be crowned King of the Retards. But don't take my word for it; Scott McClellan states that the WH and DoD worked closely on the "event."

3. Ok, half of the conservative hacks are arguing that this "conversation with the troops" wasn't a staged photo op, and the other half (NRO, Malkin, Fred Barnes) are arguing that these types of things are ALWAYS staged, so the MSM shouldn't treat it as a big deal. Unfortunately, these two arguments are mutually exclusive, so y'all should probably pick ONE and go with that. I guess Rove was too busy this morning preparing to go to jail to send out your coordinated talking points.

Schmucks.
 
Jeez. None of those guys was standing there with a little piece of paper preparing to read the answer. In these events you ALWAYS know what the questions are. The soldiers were there to answer the questions. And no, nobody sought out hippies, quitters, crybabies, or retards to answer the President's questions. They had expertise in the areas the President was interested in hearing about. Wouldn't you pick a Captain who liasoned with the Iraqi army to answer a question about the training status of the Iraqis or would you drive down to the stockade to get Private Shitbird? If the questions are known and the answers are memorized then its a script and then the segment is called a "commercial." Some of you guys think that only fear kept these soldiers from cursing the President to his face and begging for an airplane ride home. There were probably trained snipers off-camera ready to take down anybody who went off message. Does anybody believe the majority of the military and particularly the military in Iraq doesn't support the mission and want to finish the job?
 
Cheney's etc: both the acuity of your language and your reasoning ability places you in the third standard deviation to the left--an IQ of room temperature in Finland--please make sure you dont cast your ballot for the President in 2008--Oh, wait.......
 
Rogera: Wow, 40+ words for a lame retort with zero discussion of the topic. You guys make Mallard Fillmore actually appear funny by comparison.

BTW, room temperature in Finland is probably pretty close to room temperature in the US or anywhere -- see, they have heaters. Now, try to prove that YOU have an IQ in triple digits by writing a put-down that actually makes sense.
 
First things first, to Cheny's 3rd: I have to hand it to you, insulting the people you're debating with comes across as really mature. After all, making argumentum ad personam is guaranteed to instantly make your opponent see the grevious error of their ways and take up every aspect of your cause. If you can't debate without ridiculing the other guy, you shouldn't even bother opening your mouth. This is doubled for cases in which the other person has knowledge and experience of the situation and you don't.

I'm likely not adding much with the following bit, but I will anyway: there is an immense difference between staging and rehearshing a conversation. Before I meet with anyone important, or engage in debate, I always rehearse what I'm going to say, as well as think up different avenues the conversation could take and prepare accordingly. After all, I'd be more than a little embarrased if I was recorded talking to, say, the President, and had to stop every other sentence so I could try and think of what to say in response to various questions.

So, is anyone besides me spotting a rather disturbing proliferation of terminal Bush Derangement Syndrome?

Oh yeah, one last thing. News flash: I wouldn't expect soldiers to be too thrilled about being filmed by reporters who (or at least the vast majority of whom) treat them with barely-veiled contempt. I don't know about you people, but I for one would not be the most pleased person in the world were I told I had to go give an interview which would be filmed by people who put me on a level roughly even with pond scum.
 
Cheney's etc: You clearly have spent no time in scandavia where the room temperature is about 65F.
And you can count past 40--thats REALLY impressive.

Go back and read the thread. The posters have discussed the differences between staging and rehearsing. If you dont agree with them, thats your privilege--But dont tell me we have avoided the arguments--we have made them. YOu sound like some of those twits on DU and Kos where comments are monitored and trolls are flagged in accordance with good stalinist tactics.

Jason hasnt kicked you off this thread and you are permitted to post your bad language and asinine opinions. That is NOT a privilege conservatives enjoy on DU or Kos. Think about that.

Good men are protecting your sorry ass so that you can demonstrate your stupidity in the name of free speech. The ash heap of history is littered by people of your ilk: Walter Duranty who justified the murderous Stalin Regime; Sy Hersh who called Pol Pot an Agrarian reformer, and this list goes on.

You are a free-rider on the sacrifices of men and women, whose shoes you are not fit to clean--

YOu embody all the reasons why the American left is morally corrupt and will never regain political power.
 
Rogera: I spent two weeks in Helsinki circa 1991, and the room temperature seemed normal. There's a chance we weren't in the same room in Scandanavia. Also, if you're keeping your thermostat above 70F you are ignoring your Dear Leader's call to conserve energy...

I agree that other posters have made arguments; in fact, I've noted that the primary 2 conservative arguments are contradictory. You're the one who's failed to make an argument, or attempt to rebut mine. I'll summarize your posts: staging and rehearsing are different, (some off-topic rant blah blah blah), you're an idiot, it's cold in Finland, you are a stupid sorry ass.

As for posting comments on DU and Kos, perhaps you should try Instapundit or Powerline; oh yeah, they don't even have comments. They just dish out brainless propaganda for y'all to accept without question and regurgitate, Dittohead style.

Good men are actually dying in an unnecessary war that was sold to the American people with a pack of lies, and that is increasing the terrorist threat to the US. You and your leadership have sent nearly 2,000 Americans to their death for a LIE. How many more young men and women do you want die for this pointless war? This war that has been the best recruiting tool al Qaeda could ask for? This doomed war, the goal of which has shifted from "create a shining beacon of democracy in the middle east," to "let's forstall civil war long enough for us to save some face and get out." You and your leadership are the disgrace of this nation and the ideals for which it stands.
 
Cheney etc: good rebuttal--profound--and tell me my friend--what have you ever done for your nation?

You dont know who good men are asshole=--because you arent one of them.
 
Cheney III,
1. Can you prove that OIF was started over a lie? Please stick to the definition.
2. What's your assessment of Al Zawahiri's intercepted letter to Al Zarqawi? Does AQ's #2 feel that they are winning?
 
Cheney the bionic freak,

You are so correct: room temperature in Finland is the same as in America 70F that would make your IQ...

Of course if you prefer Centigrade that would be about 21.

Now about the substance of your arguments....

America has always had its Copperheads. They were Democrats then too. My how times have changed.
 
One of the soldiers involved in the videoconference blogged about it. I'll take his word over those of the trolls in this thread.
 
I feel sorry for you guys. After 9/11, the Bush administration had a real opportunity to use the immense skills and resources of the US armed forces to hunt down al Qaeda around the world. Instead, they chose to take out Saddam and pour 2,000 American lives, over 7,000 severely wounded, and $200+ billion down a sinkhole in Iraq. And what do we have to show for it? Iraq is teetering on the brink of civil war, and across the middle east we've spawned a whole new generation of Muslims that hate the US. Right now the best case scenario is the establishment of a nominally democratic Islamic republic modeled on Iran. Would that be worth 2,000 dead and 7,000 severely wounded?

And you poor saps are left to try to justify an unjustifiable war. Did the administration lie to the American people? We were told that "we know for sure" that Saddam had WMDs. Lie. We were told that he was an "immediate" threat to the US. Lie. We were told that there substantial connections between al Qaeda and Saddam. Lie. Our soldiers were sent into harm's way without the proper equipment and protective gear, and without a plan for the occupation.

You guys can't marshal logic or reason to defend this administration in its rush to war, and its bungled execution thereof, so you start doing weird things. You convince yourselves that things are going well over there; that it's the US media's fault everybody thinks otherwise. If you admit things are going poorly, you still think it's the media's fault, or the fault of people who are against the war, as if the Iraqi suicide bombers check the US Gallup poll before they decide to head out to blow something up.

You convince yourselves that criticism of the administration equals criticism of the troops. You equate our invasion of Iraq with the US Civil war, as m. simon does. Wow, I've seen some rationalization in my time, but that one takes the cake.

But in the end, these rationalizations, excuses, diversion, and projections will fail you, as logic, rationality and reality have done. And all you'll be able to do is call me an asshole and bury your head in the sand a little more, like rogera. Good luck with that.
 
Feh. You people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

CTN, I'll see all your arguments (though most have been soundly refuted elsewhere, on factual grounds), and raise you this:

Iraq is the home of 25 million purple fingers. And counting.

And no, I don't kick commenters off threads unless they post a legal problem.

I'm way above the Kossacks.
 
My point oh genetically deformed one is that there has always been an anti-war movement in America and that it has most often been associated with the Democrats.

Which would make you a Copperhead 2005 edition.
 
Cheney III,

Thanks for the uninformative post. No links, only words selected from thin air, I guess.

Just for your future reference, here's the definition of a lie:

"A lie is a statement made by someone who believes or suspects it to be false, in the expectation that the hearers may believe it. Thus a true statement may be a lie if the speaker thinks it is false. Fictions, though false, are not lies. Depending on definitions, a lie can be a genuine falsehood or a selective truth, a lie by omission, or even the truth if the intention is to deceive or to cause an action not in the listener's interests."

It is true that the intelligence was wrong (and not just US intelligence, but an international coalition of intelligence on Saddam's possession of WMD). However, it was judged to be accurate. Therefore, there were no lies involved.

Next, please produce the quote where a Bush administration official stated that the threat was "immediate." You won't find it. However, when you do a search for "gathering," that'll show up. Nice try, no cigar.

Finally, look up the Senate Intel Committee's Report on Iraq and Terrorism and educate yourself. There were connections between AQ and Iraq consistent with information given by the administration. Also, look at the reporting following the start of OIF, with material that develops the nature of this connection further.

Next, you won't make an attempt at reading another primary source document, Al Zawahiri's letter, to analyze the situation? Does it not support your point of view?

Lastly, there have been only 1970 US KIA to date, so your 2000 figure is a LIE, it is a known falsehood presented as truth by you. Just wanted to show you the difference between a LIE and intelligence that is wrong.
 
Administrative officials describing the threat from Saddam as "immediate" and other similar descriptions:

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=24970


Dick Cheney, stating that there is "no doubt" that Saddam has WMDs:

"Simply stated, Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction," he said. "There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies and against us. There is no doubt that his aggressive regional ambitions will lead him into future confrontations with his neighbors, confrontations that will involve both the weapons he has today and the ones he will continue to develop with his oil wealth."

http://www.dod.gov/news/Aug2002/n08262002_200208264.html

The historical record, like logic and reality, is on my side.
 
I apparently lost the bubble here: what started out as what I thought was a critique of the AP story on the media event as staged or rehearsed has now morphed into a full scale reiteration of the decision to invade Iraq.

Frankly these kinds of discussions are tendentious and ersatz scholar ship--they are akin to Truman's decision to use nuclear weapons to end the war in the Pacific. Lots of ink spilled all of which is absolutely irrelevant. Weapons were used, the Japanese were defeated, and history has marched on.

None of us--CheneyIII or any of the supporters of the President's policy will know the outcome--its out of our hands and time will tell who was right. All we are really highlighting are our respective orientations toward the future, and, implicitly, the moral bases for going to war.

This is nothing more than a scholastic disputation. The die has been cast and the question now is what are our expectations--dont like the party in power, vote em out--oh wait: we already did that.
 
Cheney III,

Thanks for providing evidence that the administration did use the terminology of immediate at times. I stand corrected on this point.

However, you still haven't demonstrated that they lied about WMD, only that they were wrong, and you haven't addressed the other points.

RogerA - I agree with you that this discussion is academic in nature, as we are already in Iraq. The decision to go to war is water under the bridge; however, to claim that President Bush lied is disingenous, and the decision was made based on intelligence that was determined to be solid. It was wrong on having WMD, correct on WMD programs.

As far as who is right about the current course of events, it's frustrating to see a lack of focus on the achievement of strategic objectives from the AQ/insurgent perspective. I think that this angle balanced with US/Iraqi strategic objectives provides a framework that avoids the wishy washy analysis that focus on tactical events (car bomb here, Iraqi assassinated there, etc.).
 
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You don't know what liberty is about. You never will. Just die already.
 
How do you know when you have dismantled the Left's claims? When they resort to straight ad hominum arguments and change the subject. Notice how Cheney's third enema goes from "IT WAS ALL STAGED!" to simply reiterating the talking points that have already been refuted months or years ago. His arguments have been hashed and he knows it, so he changes the subject so that he doesn't have to defend a debate that he's already lost. Notice how the Dipshit Voter pulls out the Nazi card.

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