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Tuesday, December 28, 2004

Speaking of the incompetence of journalists 
Bob Herbert comes up with a breathtakingly ignorant column today.

You might think that the debacle in Iraq would be enough for the Pentagon, that it would not be in the mood to seek out new routes to unnecessary wars for the United States to fight. But with Donald Rumsfeld at the apex of the defense establishment, enough is never enough.

So, as detailed in an article in The Times on Dec. 19, Mr. Rumsfeld's minions are concocting yet another grandiose and potentially disastrous scheme. Pentagon officials are putting together a plan that would give the military a more prominent role in intelligence gathering operations that traditionally have been handled by the Central Intelligence Agency. They envision the military doing more spying with humans, as opposed, for example, to surveillance with satellites.


Oh, perish the thought!!! After all, if only we had better satellites, they could have picked up those boxcutters on 9/11/01. No, it's not as if Al Qaeda actually did an end run around our technological prowess and satellite technology and exploited the lack of HUMINT, right?

Further encroachment by the military into intelligence matters better handled by civilians is bad enough.


Objection, your honor: Assumes facts not in evidence. It has not been established that intelligence is better handled by civilian agencies. It was, after all, George Tenet, a civilian, that assured the President of a 'slam dunk' case of WMDs in Iraq, right? Hell, the CIA did such a fantastic job of predicting 9/11, the Cole incident, finding Mohammed Farah Aideed, the invasion of Kosovo, and the fall of communism in Russia.

"Among the ideas cited by Defense Department officials is the idea of 'fighting for intelligence,' or commencing combat operations chiefly to obtain intelligence."


Damn right. That's one of the many advantages of the offensive. You get to go through their file cabinets and raid their computer hard drives. You don't learn ANYTHING on the defensive, except what the enemy has already done.

Armies have been executing raids, prisoner snatches, reconnaisance in force, and movements to contact for the express purpose of developing intelligence since the dawn of modern warfare, you drooling ignoramus!

That is utter madness.


No. It's reality. Sorry you've led such a sheltered life, Bob.

The geniuses in Washington have already launched one bogus war, which has cost tens of thousands of lives and provoked levels of suffering that are impossible to quantify.


Objection, your honor. It has not been established that the US attack has indeed, provoked new levels of suffering. Indeed, it's been well established that the suffering was already in place, and was indeed even more widespread before the US intervened.

Ignorance of military affairs is one thing. But combining it with a short and selective memory is a horse of a different loving.

We don't need to be contemplating new forms of warfare waged for the sole purpose of gathering intelligence.


What's new about it, Bob? C'mon. Explain to me what's novel about taking the offensive to develop intel?

Part of this plan to further aggrandize Mr. Rumsfeld is being drafted under the direction of Lt. Gen. William Boykin, a deputy under secretary of defense who has already demonstrated that he should not be allowed anywhere near the most serious matters of national security. General Boykin, who once had the job of directing the hunt for Osama bin Laden, is an evangelical Christian who believes God put President Bush in the White House.


Wow. I've never seen so many logical fallacies condensed into a single paragraph. It's almost Dowdian!!!

But Herbert manages to simultaneously become ensnared in argumentum ad homineim circumstantial and denying the antecedent: Even if you accept the premise that Boykin is an evangelical Christian, it does not in any way undermine or counter the logic of the offensive as a means to develop intelligence. But watch how Bob Herbert embraces his fallacy.

He has described the fight against Islamic militants as a struggle against Satan and declared that it can be won only "if we come at them in the name of Jesus."


True. But again a nonsequitur. Thomas Jackson was an evangelical, too. And one who understood the value of the offensive, and kicked the crap out of the Union in the Valley.


General Boykin asserted his views in speeches that he delivered in his military uniform at religious functions around the country. In one speech, referring to a Muslim fighter in Somalia, the general said: "Well, you know what I knew - that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol."


Nonsequitur. Boykin could have appeared at religious functions wearing a ballerina tutu and claiming that Moses was half wizard, half platypus and it would still have no bearing on whether offensive action for the purpose of developing intelligence makes sense.

General Boykin was forced to apologize after media accounts led to widespread criticism.


Yeah, yeah. MacArthur and Patton were both roasted in the media, too. So was Robert E. Lee.

How difficult is it to come to the conclusion that this is not a fellow who should be making decisions on matters involving armed conflict with Muslims?


It doesn't matter if we're in armed conflict with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It still makes sense to develop intelligence through offensive operations. (The alternative is the strategic defensive. Which is otherwise known as "losing." Putz.)

"The last time Mr. Rumsfeld tried to force himself into the intelligence collection and analysis business, he created a boutique C.I.A. in the bowels of the Pentagon under the command of Douglas Feith, the under secretary of defense for policy. The office essentially fabricated a link between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden - a link used to justify the Iraq invasion, and one that Mr. Rumsfeld was not getting from the C.I.A."


Herbert is propagating a lie, here. Rumsfeld was right: There was a link between Saddam and Al Qaeda. (Zarqawi). It may not have been an operational link. But Herbert, drooling ignoramus that he is, is incapable of discerning anything other than an operational link, because he apparently doesn't understand logistics.

As Mr. Rumsfeld sees it, if the professionals won't give you what you want, find someone who will.


Again, Herbert seems wholly ignorant of some pretty basic facts here. The fact is that the military has always had its own intelligence shops separate from the CIA. Keeping an intelligence agency within the Pentagon is not a Rumsfeld creation. For instance, Mr. Herbert, you may be surprised to know that the Defense Intelligence Agency has been in existence for 40 years.

Indeed, Mr. Herbert, had you had even the foggiest inkling of what the Hell you were talking about, you would also have been aware that Union General George B. McClellan also developed an in-house intelligence/counterintelligence capability, under the direction of Allan Pinkerton.

I have no idea where Herbert gets the idea that the only professional intelligence organization in federal service is the CIA. Well, actually, I do know. Ignorance.

The rest is just the wrongheaded conclusions of his singularly misinformed illogic. But it's always rich when someone from the New York Times, of all places - and particularly one so clearly and completely out of his depth, accuses other people of hubris.

Splash, out

Jason

Comments:
From “A Better War” by Lewis Sorely:
“Later such authoritative voices as Bui Tin’s testified to the importance the North Vietnamese attached to the antiwar movement in the United States. ‘It was essential to our strategy,’ said Colonel Tin. ‘Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us.’ After the war Admiral Elmo Zumwalt visited Vietnam and talked with Communist leaders. ‘General Giap was very clear,’ said Zumwalt. ‘They always knew they had to win it here [in the United States] and the Jane Fondas of this world were of great use to them.’ Pg. 93-94

Apparently Iraq can become like Vietnam. If anti-war Americans fight hard enough, they can defeat their country again; like Vietnam. Jane Fonda encouraged America’s enemy like this writer and I wonder how many names on the memorial are due to her encouragement.
In a future book someone will write, "The Bob Herberts of this world were of great use to them".


It is sad that people who think they protest war and death cause so much of it. Intelligence can prevent massive battles and loss of life. Removing infrastructure (using intelligence rather than bombs) saves lives and makes it impossible for terrorist aid to be sent because there is no longer a place to send it.

Writing that condemns Americans who are fighting against the most effective hate machine since Hitler, kills people by extending war. Acquiring intelligence might be a good idea for some of the anti-Rumsfeld people to think about. Moore-ons encourage the world’s enemy to think it is possible to break America’s will to win. Such people think they are the only ones that hate war. What arrogance.

War sucks. Let’s win and get it over with.

G.M.
 
This column is typical of the low quality produced by Bob Herbert. In a way, the Times is promoting racism by using so mediocre a token black op-ed writer.
 
That column is typical of Herbert. Thanks for reading and fisking the thing so we don't have to. You have a stronger stomach than I do.
 
A brilliant fisking.

If only Herbert put as much effort into his column...
 
Thank you for your refuting most of what Bob Herbert had to say in his column. I read his piece and simply laughed. He's a 'token' at the "Times," not very bright and hopelessly uninformed. Actually, he might be correctly called "the resident whine."
 
"The debacle in Iraq"

With that opening sentence, Herbert gives away his bias and right away the rest of his coloumn can be dismissed. Who says it's a debacle? Herbert and his fellow democrats, that's who. From everything I've read, the war is actually going quite well, with occasional acts of terrorisim. That pretty much describes the existence of the entire state of Israel, and can anyone say that country isnt running smoothly?

In addition to the rest of your excellent fisking, Jason, you should not let casual assertions like "the "war is a debacle" pass. If it remains unchallenged, uncritical and unthinking people will begin to believe it really is a debacle, when nothing could be further from the truth.
 
Reading his biography kind of explains who he is and who he's writing for (to). He lives, as the NYT says, in Manhatten's West Side. WoW, I guess they see this as giving him an extra dose of perception! and then you notice that he writes about "social" matters. Need I say more.
 
Herbert is an unmitigated ass. He's perfect for the NYT, which hasn't wanted a writer knowledgable in the US military for years.
His defense of Al Gore's completely unhinged screed back in May of 2004, and his defense of the Army deserter Mejia put him well into the far left camp. Unfortunately for them, they cannot bring themselves to study the military enough to competently comment on the subject. Fortunately for America, his views will be regurgitated verbatim by the Left; and his ignorance will continue to lead them into the desert. Forty years lost is okay by me.
 
I assume this whole business was a leak from within the CIA, and Herbert was stupid/ignorant enuf to bite.

It IS one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen, not even worthy of a 4th-grade student newspaper.
 
How Bob Herbert can write about intelligence when he has not even a passing acquaintance with it is simply beyond me. Yet so typical of his ilk in the MSM. Thanks for the excellent fisking!
 
As a civilian with no personal knowledge of the military, I have a question, just to clarify things. When you speak of Zarqawi not being an operational link, is "operational" just a synonym for "active" or "functioning," or is a military term of art with a specialized meaning? It would seem the latter, the way you contrast it with "logistics," but an elucidation would be helpful.
 
A link of any kind between Saddam and Al Queda? You people still think there was one? Sheesh... Nice try repeating the fallacy but it's not true and never was. Get over it. Your government lied to you and continues to lie. Shameful.
 
I believe this definition might help:

Operational - pertaining to a process or series of actions for achieving a result; "operational difficulties".

Logistics, of course, has to do with the specifics of procurement, distribution, transport, etc. of men and materiel.

There were many links between Saddam and Al Qaeda. They did not conspire together to actually perform specific terrorist actions against the U.S., but they did support and cooperate with one another in various ways.
 
In addition to agreeeing with Jason's usually brilliant and astute comments, I would like to note that Herbert REALLY doesn't get it if he thinks Boykin's Christianity disqualifies him from making military intelligence-related decisions. Does he know that Islam is actually a religion? And that they are "armed" so by religious obligation? He is one of the growing blind masses who believe we have reached such a secular plane of justice that we can get Allah's warriors on our side with milk and cookies. And, if not for our own brave warriors who battle on with or without the best equipment Congress should have appropriated and fielded long ago, this mentality will cause us to lose and to lose big.
 
I agree that Bob doesn't have a clue about what he's saying, however, every comment that you refute of his is backed by information equally as false.

ie:
"Objection, your honor. It has not been established that the US attack has indeed, provoked new levels of suffering. Indeed, it's been well established that the suffering was already in place, and was indeed even more widespread before the US intervened."

Question, whom made the establishment that the suffering was more widespread before? The US government I guess, or an agency funded by them (and any other establishment would be declared as anti-american and immediately dismissed). Face it, both you and Bob for that matter are being played as pawns in the war of propaganda.

Truth. Truth is what you can see with your eyes, everything else is biased or spun one direction or another. One of the main reason I read this blog is to get one man's bias. For the same reason, I read the anti-American Iraqi blogs.

Patriotism. Patriotism is not believing everything that is force fed to you by the government and media, remember, propaganda is a major war tool and the media is the main target of the propaganda war. Patriotism is not denouncing those whom do not agree with the war as not being "Patriots". These people may agree with my definition of "Truth" and derive their own version of it.

You want the truth? Make it up! Read NYTimes, read CNN, read Aljazeera, read all the blogs on both sides of the issue, read the French, German, Russian versions of these stories and derive your own version of the truth, however for gods sake, DO NOT take articles, information or data originating from either side of the war as fact, as this is primarily propoganda.

You want proof of this? Do you research on German propaganda in the 1940s, whom did they fool the most? The german people!
 
"Whom made the establishment that the suffering was already in place? The US government or an agency funded by them?"

Nope. Try the entire civilized world.

But this book will neatly encapsulate it.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/159228695X/qid=1104694026/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/002-3045273-1592018

Or ask any Iraqi Kurd or Shia.

Then there's this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3253783.stm

http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000374.php

http://massgraves.info/

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/13/iraq.graves/

You mistake cynicism for insight. It is not. Cynicism is a disability.
 
I as well agree that there was suffering in place before the "invasion" of Iraq (and by the way, I commend the amount of research you provide to this). My point here was not that it was not happening, it was that it may or may not have been more widespread before, however, I assure you that this suffering is continuing and is an external factor to this war.

One thing that I would like you to prove that may change my mind in this matter is that this was a government sponsored event and not random hate crimes by small/large groups as occurs in the US. Otherwise, how is this different than in the US and how would you feel if another country invaded because of American human rights violations.

I'm still trying to understand WHY the U.S. is in Iraq. Bombs? There are none, and even if there were, what right does the US have to stop a country from possessing them? To prevent them from doing something as silly as the US did to Japan in WW2? Maybe if they had some nukes, they could have saved hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives. Human Rights? China's record is 1000 times worse and Iraq was probably in line with US human rights now with all the new US laws. Terrorism? What terrorism? Any form of terrorism that the Iraqi's have done is a speck in comparison to the mass terrorism and genocide done by the US Government in Iraq. To back it up a little further, how was 9/11 any different than the murders that are occurring in Iraq (In which I agree both are equally as horrible). Innocent people? Yes, there were many, however many more innocent people have died in Iraq than during 9/11.
They started it? No they didn't, a group that was at war with the US started it, yet all of a sudden this is the worst thing that's ever happened to the US. Why? Because the US didn't attack first. Again, although I don't condone anything about 9/11, in military terms, why was it wrong to attack a civilian target when this is often the first target of the US military (or Ooops, we thought that hospital was full of bombs). I think this is very hypocritical.

Just playing Devil's Advocate! Please refute everything that I say as I love to get all sides of these issues!
 
Anonymous wrote:
“I'm still trying to understand WHY the U.S. is in Iraq. Bombs? There are none, and even if there were, what right does the US have to stop a country from possessing them? To prevent them from doing something as silly as the US did to Japan in WW2? Maybe if they had some nukes, they could have saved hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives. Human Rights? China's record is 1000 times worse and Iraq was probably in line with US human rights now with all the new US laws. Terrorism? What terrorism? Any form of terrorism that the Iraqi's have done is a speck in comparison to the mass terrorism and genocide done by the US Government in Iraq . . .”

Just playing Devil's Advocate! Please refute everything that I say as I love to get all sides of these issues!
# posted by Anonymous : 15:28

Anonymous,
How old are you? Nine? Or are you an adult in Saddam’s insurgent army? Here is a quote from the blog “Powerline” to explain why we can’t let the little dip stick dictators kill anyone they want to anymore. By the way, the devil has enough advocates.


Powerline at http://powerlineblog.com

Austin Bay wrote:

"For centuries the fake nation-states didn't matter too much. Tribal battles remained local horrors. Not any more. Enforcing local dictatorial control with arrows or assault rifles is one thing--but now the rogue rulers use nerve gas. With ballistic missiles at hand, with terrorists willing to fly commercial jets into skyscrapers, rogues' possession and use of chemical weapons is no longer a local matter: Technological compression means a local war can become a global war. We learned, at a terrible price, that Islamofascist plotting in Afghanistan produces terrorist crime in New York and Washington. To return to an era where distance made a difference requires ditching essential technology. Ban the Internet? Ban the 747? Ban satellite television?"
 
"How old are you? Nine? Or are you an adult in Saddam’s insurgent army? Here is a quote from the blog “Powerline” to explain why we can’t let the little dip stick dictators kill anyone they want to anymore. By the way, the devil has enough advocates."

In response to the above. I am not a person with un-educated or extremist views, I am an individual educated in historical conflicts and whom looks at all sides of an issue without getting blinded by patriotism. Up until the whole WMD fiasco, I was onboard with the Bush administration and it’s decision to invade Afghanistan, however, now, with no reason to have invaded Iraq, of course I am against this and yes, I agree that the Iraqis should fight back. Wouldn’t you if some foreign power invaded the U.S. with no reason what so ever? In your comment about explaining why “we can’t let the little dip stick dictators kill anyone they want to anymore”. Does it make right to kill anyone they want if the “dip stick” is publicly elected (eg: Bush)?

In a simple statement obviously meant to say “Shut Up”, you make such a statement about yourself. You are either so much of a “patriot” that you blindly agree with everything that is told to you or are completely uneducated in the definition of “Devil’s Advocate”.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt about the definition, you are stating that people should not question or search for the truth about an issue and should immediately take any comment made by the government as fact. If this is the case, I suggest you pick up a copy of the book “1984” by George Orwell and think of this in an American context. Here’s a link (http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/).

Doublethink: “… the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. ... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient...”
http://www.online-literature.com/view.php/1984/17?term=doublethink%20means
 
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