Saturday, November 27, 2004
Jason attracting incoming fire!
JTB in Texas is raking me over the coals for violating the patriotic orthodoxy here.
Well, I think one can disagree without coming down on some side opposing US troops over there.
As for whether all of these people can be summarily executed, that is clearly not the case.
To wit: Article 1 from the UN Human Rights Commission's Principles on the Effective Prevention and Investigation of Extra Legal, Arbitrary, and Summary Executions.
The fact that the marine was wounded in a booby trap incident the previous day is evidence in mitigation, not of innocence. The marine has excellent recourse in a claim of self-defense, if he thought the Iraqi was a threat. But US troops are not authorized to perform summary executions. That idea is simply a nonstarter, under current law.
I think this contradicts something I wrote the other day, to the effect that those captured wearing ING uniforms are subject to summary execution, which is what the JAGs were telling us in IOBC way back when. The protocol clearly forbids summary execution in this context (though they could be tried, and executed as spies, under the due process of law.)
Even if we were to recognize summary executions--a concept I am deeply, deeply uncomfortable with--it's not something to be settled at the fire team level.
Maybe the way to have dealt with it was for the USMC to get out in front of it and pay a few hundred dollars "blood money" to the guy's tribe or family. (Most Iraqis carried some form of picture ID.)
It's a practice that's accepted and understood in the tribal Arab world, and it's a lot better than giving the radicals the propaganda value. Most reporters would have held on to the tape for a couple of days in order to give the staff some time to work the deal out with the sheikhs.
Not an ideal solution by any means. But when life gives you lemons, make hay.
On the other hand, if this marine did nothing wrong, then why is the idiot wing of the Republican party calling for vigilante justice to kill Kevin Sites?
What makes these morons any better than those who called for a fatwa against Salman Rushdie?
Splash, out
Jason
"I would have aired it, too." So we know where you stand. And it's apparently not on the side of the troops still over there. Or on the subject of objective, contextual truth.
No, I've never been in combat; but I know the Geneva Conventions /do not/ protect terrorists--who don't fight in uniform and kill civilians. All of these people can be captured and summarily executed according to accepted rules of war, just like spies...
What the Marine did may haunt him for the rest of his life; but it was legal and if he thought he was saving his team from a threat in combat circumstances, it was right.
Well, I think one can disagree without coming down on some side opposing US troops over there.
As for whether all of these people can be summarily executed, that is clearly not the case.
To wit: Article 1 from the UN Human Rights Commission's Principles on the Effective Prevention and Investigation of Extra Legal, Arbitrary, and Summary Executions.
1. Governments shall prohibit by law all extra-legal, arbitrary and summary executions and shall ensure that any such executions are recognized as offences under their criminal laws, and are punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account the seriousness of such offences. Exceptional circumstances including a state of war or threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency may not be invoked as a justification of such executions.
Such executions shall not be carried out under any circumstances including, but not limited to, situations of internal armed conflict, excessive or illegal use of force by a public official or other person acting in an official capacity or by a person acting at the instigation, or with the consent or acquiescence of such person, and situations in which deaths occur in custody. This prohibition shall prevail over decrees issued by governmental authority.
The fact that the marine was wounded in a booby trap incident the previous day is evidence in mitigation, not of innocence. The marine has excellent recourse in a claim of self-defense, if he thought the Iraqi was a threat. But US troops are not authorized to perform summary executions. That idea is simply a nonstarter, under current law.
I think this contradicts something I wrote the other day, to the effect that those captured wearing ING uniforms are subject to summary execution, which is what the JAGs were telling us in IOBC way back when. The protocol clearly forbids summary execution in this context (though they could be tried, and executed as spies, under the due process of law.)
Even if we were to recognize summary executions--a concept I am deeply, deeply uncomfortable with--it's not something to be settled at the fire team level.
Maybe the way to have dealt with it was for the USMC to get out in front of it and pay a few hundred dollars "blood money" to the guy's tribe or family. (Most Iraqis carried some form of picture ID.)
It's a practice that's accepted and understood in the tribal Arab world, and it's a lot better than giving the radicals the propaganda value. Most reporters would have held on to the tape for a couple of days in order to give the staff some time to work the deal out with the sheikhs.
Not an ideal solution by any means. But when life gives you lemons, make hay.
On the other hand, if this marine did nothing wrong, then why is the idiot wing of the Republican party calling for vigilante justice to kill Kevin Sites?
What makes these morons any better than those who called for a fatwa against Salman Rushdie?
Splash, out
Jason
Comments:
I suppose Sites gave us no alternative but to argue over the context of the shooting. There are people who will not consider any context but the one that will advance their own agenda. Since it is obvious that the shooting would in no way advance America's agenda, even if it was a snap decision aimed at self defence, that leaves only the terrorist agenda to make hay out of the whole thing.
Sites knew which way the wind would blow. He made the decison. He claims journalism as his first allegiance, apparently even before his country, and he used this "higher calling" to justify the release of the picture. Still, justice nor truth have been served because we don't know the truth. Only "journalism" has been served. What coutry is "left" or "right"? What nation is "journalism"?. Even journalism has been served poorly because if journalism has been served so well, why is there so much misunderstanding about the whole thing?
Releasing pictures that serve neither truth, humanity, or justice, for a career boost and money is disgusting. I don't feel the need to respect a man who would serve journalism before he considered justice, truth, humanity, America, or the Marine who made a mistake in in the midst of insanity. Just because prostitution is legal doesn't mean a prostitute is any less a prostitute. Sites is a prostitute. I don't care what happens to Sites one way or the other.
Sites knew which way the wind would blow. He made the decison. He claims journalism as his first allegiance, apparently even before his country, and he used this "higher calling" to justify the release of the picture. Still, justice nor truth have been served because we don't know the truth. Only "journalism" has been served. What coutry is "left" or "right"? What nation is "journalism"?. Even journalism has been served poorly because if journalism has been served so well, why is there so much misunderstanding about the whole thing?
Releasing pictures that serve neither truth, humanity, or justice, for a career boost and money is disgusting. I don't feel the need to respect a man who would serve journalism before he considered justice, truth, humanity, America, or the Marine who made a mistake in in the midst of insanity. Just because prostitution is legal doesn't mean a prostitute is any less a prostitute. Sites is a prostitute. I don't care what happens to Sites one way or the other.
Jason,
Who would assume the soldier was "executing" the wounded man?. Gunfire was heard, a battle was going on. Only Sites knew the wounded men had been there since the day before. Soldiers coming out assumed they had shot the men, when according to Sites, they had been wounded the day before. Sites never hesitated to communicate when he saw live rounds cooking off earlier (threatening his own life), but when the soldiers asked if the wounded were disarmed he never bothered communicating what he knew. There is a lot more to this story than a few seconds of video.
Who would assume the soldier was "executing" the wounded man?. Gunfire was heard, a battle was going on. Only Sites knew the wounded men had been there since the day before. Soldiers coming out assumed they had shot the men, when according to Sites, they had been wounded the day before. Sites never hesitated to communicate when he saw live rounds cooking off earlier (threatening his own life), but when the soldiers asked if the wounded were disarmed he never bothered communicating what he knew. There is a lot more to this story than a few seconds of video.
Jason wrote: "On the other hand, if this marine did nothing wrong, then why is the idiot wing of the Republican party calling for vigilante justice to kill Kevin Sites?"
Comment:
Because the Marine did nothing wrong.
Comment:
Because the Marine did nothing wrong.
Jason wrote: "The marine has excellent recourse in a claim of self-defense, if he thought the Iraqi was a threat. But US troops are not authorized to perform summary executions. That idea is simply a nonstarter, under current law."
Comment:If a soldier thinks, (in the fraction of a second that he has to make up his mind or possibly die) that an enemy is playing possum,(and in his experience the only reason the enemy plays possum is to ambush someone)he is not "executing" anyone; he is combating an enemy who is trying to kill him. If it turns out he is right (in that fraction of a second that he has to make his decision) he just might (or might not) save his life and those of his friends. If it turns out he is wrong, he has to live with it. In any case, shooting the enemy before they can kill is what soldiers do. And combat is not execution.
The words the soldier yelled indicated that he thought the enemy was playing possum. That is, he was faking being dead. "Faking" means an attempt to deceive. The reason to deceive is not knownat that moment. The soldiers already had experience with this type of deception. He is a good soldier. He communicated the situation, made a decision, and acted in the best interests of himself, his friends and his country. Instinctive reaction is part of the training a soldier goes through. Killing a man who intends to ambush a soldier is not "summary execution". Seconds before the shooting, a question was asked about the enemy being armed. There was no answer but a shrug.
Now, if you were there, and in that fraction of a second, believed an enemy was playing possum, maybe you could search him or disarm him before he could kill you or one of your friends. To be real honest, I'd rather have the Marine at my back than have you at my back.
Journalism today is more of tabloid sensationalism than it is real journalism. Sites is a good example of this. His pictures did not help anyone in the world but Sites. Sites wrote about the incident via hindsight. The soldier had hindsight knowledge too, but not before he pulled the trigger.
George Maddox
Comment:If a soldier thinks, (in the fraction of a second that he has to make up his mind or possibly die) that an enemy is playing possum,(and in his experience the only reason the enemy plays possum is to ambush someone)he is not "executing" anyone; he is combating an enemy who is trying to kill him. If it turns out he is right (in that fraction of a second that he has to make his decision) he just might (or might not) save his life and those of his friends. If it turns out he is wrong, he has to live with it. In any case, shooting the enemy before they can kill is what soldiers do. And combat is not execution.
The words the soldier yelled indicated that he thought the enemy was playing possum. That is, he was faking being dead. "Faking" means an attempt to deceive. The reason to deceive is not knownat that moment. The soldiers already had experience with this type of deception. He is a good soldier. He communicated the situation, made a decision, and acted in the best interests of himself, his friends and his country. Instinctive reaction is part of the training a soldier goes through. Killing a man who intends to ambush a soldier is not "summary execution". Seconds before the shooting, a question was asked about the enemy being armed. There was no answer but a shrug.
Now, if you were there, and in that fraction of a second, believed an enemy was playing possum, maybe you could search him or disarm him before he could kill you or one of your friends. To be real honest, I'd rather have the Marine at my back than have you at my back.
Journalism today is more of tabloid sensationalism than it is real journalism. Sites is a good example of this. His pictures did not help anyone in the world but Sites. Sites wrote about the incident via hindsight. The soldier had hindsight knowledge too, but not before he pulled the trigger.
George Maddox
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