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Saturday, September 10, 2005

An Air Force Loggie weighs in 
Some good points from one of our brothers in blue:

1. Things can get destroyed far more swiftly than they can get fixed.

2. The United States military can wipe out the Taliban and the Iraqi Republican Guard far more swiftly than they can bring 3 million Swanson dinners to an underwater city through an area the size of Great Britain which has no power, no working ports or airports, and a devastated and impassable road network.

3. You cannot speed recovery and relief efforts up by prepositioning assets since the assets are endangered by the very storm which destroyed the region.

4. We do not yet have teleporter nor replicator technology like you saw on "Star Trek" in college between hookah hits and waiting to pick up your worthless communications degree while the grownups actually engaged in the recovery effort today were studying engineering.

5. Getting people out of the stricken areas is the most pressing concern, since we cannot get enough supplies into it to safely sustain them.

6. Getting the airport, bridges, and roads repaired is the next priority, since the supplies and people needed to fix levees, drain the city, and repair the infrastructure cannot be transported via aircraft. You need to truck them in.

7. Once the infrastructure is repaired, it is vital to get the ports in working order. Equipment and supplies can only be moved into the area in large quantities by sea.

8. Only then can recovery efforts begin in earnest.

9. The above will take weeks and months, not days or hours.

10. No amount of yelling, crying, and mustering of moral indignation will change any of the facts above. Facts are facts. Opinion is cheap.


What he said.

Jason

Comments:
One thing I have been wondering. As we try to find out what was not done right;
If the powers that be knew everything we know now, at the time the water poured in, what would they haved done different. What would the logistics have allowed them to do different. Anything? Or would only a diffent set of people die.
 
So how come WalMart was able to get convoys in? How come the Red Cross and other private aid agencies were prevented from entering NO? And how come 3 undergrads from Duke were able to just get in their car and get in and out of NO multiple times, ferrying a few people at a time, and getting gas whenever they needed it?

Face it, the folks that should have been providing aid to the evacuation centers were paralyzed with hyped up fear of lawlessness. Anyone with guts just got their ass down their and pitched in.

You know the expression, excuses are like assholes. Everyone's got one.
 
Where did these luminaries come in from? How many trucks? What route did they take? If they found a passable route, did they pass on the information to someone in the hopes that others would use it, or assume it was already known? Were they trying to bring supplies to one location, or several dozen at once?

But no, you really don't want answers to your questions, do you? You just want people to assume the answer is "it's all the government's fault" since it's such a nice and easy opinion to come up with.

BTW, the expression is that opinions are like assholes. Interesting.
 
By "they" I'm assuming you mean the kids from Duke. They came in the same route everyone came in on, the press, WalMart, anyone and everyone -- the only road into NO. NO was never physically isolated. There was always at least one road passable.

You can read about them at
these links. They were also interviewed on CNN, but I dont find a link their site.

And yes, I really do want answers. Unlike the finger pointing wimps like DeLay and Rove. Why aren't these ass-covering f---ups willing to allow an indepenent investigation? I'd like to see them go on Joe Scarborough's show and try and explain why they fear an independent panel.
 
Um, the Red Cross and the other "private agencies" actually work with and are coordinated by you guessed it, FEMA.

And it was the State of LA that kept the RC and another of FEMA's main groups, the Sully Army, out of NO
 
Any your point is?

Look, I don't have the answers. My mind is not closed, nor blinded by some sort of craven partisanship.

But I find it gaulling that Jason is reduced to posting lame ass-covering and excuse making. And I'm really appauled that Bush and DeLay won't commission a real, independent investigation.

This is important. There is no excuse for not doing this right. Let the chips fall where they may. We have to learn from this failure.

Real Americans, real patriots, would not have it any other way. Too bad there are none of them at the helm in DC.
 
KC,

Did you read #5?

5. Getting people out of the stricken areas is the most pressing concern, since we cannot get enough supplies into it to safely sustain them.

That's fantastic that WalMart was able to get a few trucks in. Were they able to get a major bus convoy in to transport people out en masse?

That's great that Duke kids could get out a few people at a time. Is that really what you wanted FEMA to arrange? Evacuation 2-3 people at a time?

Read some of Jason's earlier posts on the logistics of putting together large groups of heavy vehicles and you'll have a better idea of what it takes to get out 10,000 people and why it takes longer than a split-second.
 
"the only road into NO. NO was never physically isolated. There was always at least one road passable." - KC

Ah....ah...ah... BULLS**T!chew! Sorry, had to sneeze!

I'd suggest you follow the timeline of the effort by the Duke students and the rigs that got into Wal*Mart KC. They were not within the first four days nor were they first responders. They came in from avenues opened by other folks thank you very much!

N.O. WAS totally isolated. It took us 42 hours to cut our way in on Tuesday. The bottlenecks kept the route turning and the ONLY decent approach was from the west. We came in from the north out of Meridian. The east was worse that the north. The total devastation of any of the main roads systems was complete. Your heroes got there well after first responders worked their collective asses off to open up the very avenues to get ANY supplies in.

Have you even seen the type of devastation that was rendered onto the Gulf Coast by Katrina? I've been through dozens of hurricanes both on shore and at sea but I've never seen anything close to this one. We first hit destruction at 300 miles out. 10 other hurricanes that we went into had destruction paths of half that if not less. The sheer scope of the destruction cannot be understood by watching TV or looking at microcosms of single photos.

But hey! What do I know? I'm just a racist bastard that was too late to deliver PROPER help because of lawlessness and race. Didn't have a damn thing to do with chain sawing a way in foot by foot or anything like that. Thank you for educating me that the roads were clear and it was all a matter of us racist pigs NOT WANTING to help our fellow Americans. Thank God those Duke students arrived on the scene though. Whew! It's great to have heroes like that to get the credit for the sweat and toil of others! For a minute there I thought you might actually believe what you are saying. It is a joke, right? You are just pulling our chain, right?
 
Yeah, but jarheaddad, are you a "real patriot" like KC and the kids from Doooook?
 
BTW: Jack Kelly's column today cites you Jason.
 
Curiously, no one here is defending the political calculations of the R's who are actively preventing a credible investigation -- exactly like they did after 9/11. No, instead you're putting words in my mouth. Or blenderizing them to willfully misconstrue what I'm saying. Did I say it was all the fault of the feds? Did I say it was all because of race? Did I say that I have the answers? No, no, and no.

The kids from Duke, as well as Wal-mart, as well as the RCMP (who were going door to door in the NO flood zone long before anyone else) raise serious questions about the relief response. They did spend a few days in Baton Rouge before faking their way into NO. But by the time they did it, according to them, it was a 15 minute, unobstructed drive from the military checkpoint to the dome. According to them, there were fleets of busses heading out of NO empty.

I have no doubt that folks like jarheaddad were working their butts off clearing the way. My hats off to anyone on the ground getting the job done. But when I hear that leaders in DC were paralyzed by lawyerly nitpicking, wringing their hands about "insurrection", that the feds were busy serving up ultimatums to Blanco rather than working as a team, that Bush and his cabinet were absent when they should have been leading, I get angry and want to see some accountability.

And, BTW, Wal-Mart did a lot more than send 3 trucks. They kicked FEMA butt all up and down the gulf coast. They aren't sitting around now trying to cover their asses. They weren't waiting for ever duck to be lined up. They didn't cower, waiting for armed escort. They took advantage of their operational capacity and got the damned job done.

I really expected better from this blog. I have read Jason's posts -- even though we are politics are night and day different -- because he has been tough minded and independent. The very opposite of what I'm reading here now.

Doesn't it concern you when a guy like Joe Scarborough, has this to say:

"SCARBOROUGH: Well, Colonel, that is surprising to a lot of people, hearing you say it, because you have been—like me, you have been a big supporter of George Bush.

"But I have been on the ground down here, and I can't cut it any other way. He has failed. FEMA has failed. The government of Mississippi has failed. The governor of Louisiana has failed. The governor—or the mayor of New Orleans has failed."

He's not the only supposedly "right wing" commentator to question the leadership and execution of the relief effort. Like I say, true patriots would be satifisfied with nothing less than a thorough, independent, de-politicized investigation. Let experts like Jason make their points dispassionately to a gold-ribbon panel of independent experts. Let the chips fall where they may.
 
Soory dude, but when you say that kids from Duke got in, and then ask why the Feds didn't, if that's not blaming them, then I don't know what is.

BTW: What does Scarborough know about disaster relief? What does he know that Jason and jarhead dad don't. Was he on the ground?

Sorry, I know lots of "real patriots" on the Right think the response sucked, but aside from the red tape bullshit that Jason has already called attention to, I've seen nothing to lead me to believe that the federal govt did anything less than a damn good job considering the logistical hurdles and the problems in the local response.

And I've heard precious little substantial, factual criticism of the effort from blowhards like Lott and Scarborough.

And color me skeptical of any blue ribbon investigative panel. Given recent revelations regarding the 9/11 commish and what they left out of the report, it looks now like a steaming pile of manure, and frankly I doubt that another commish will be anything different. Another chance for a lot of jerks to bloviate and then put out some half-assed report.

But then again, I'm not a "real patriot" (TM)
 
OK KC, I'll try to be civil. It is particulalry hard to do when what we've been accused of causes so much bad feeling. To the point that I'd just as soon chunk the whole deal and take my name off the first responder list. Quite frankly the sheer insanity of the BS flowing from all points has made me sit back and take a few moments of introspection. I've NEVER felt this way in any of the other disasters I've been proud to help with the relief of. I sincerely mean that. I really have serious doubts as to whether I will ever volunteer my services again because of this. And this is what you want to hold whom responsible for? Bush? FEMA? I didn't hear them calling me racist or incompetent!

And Scarborough can kiss my grits. It's easy to be such a masterful soothsayer when you have helos at your disposal. I am so over all those people it's not even funny. In ANY disaster relief effort step 1 comes before step 2. You seem to want to throw out all steps before 8 and I'm afraid reality doesn't work that way as far as logisitics go.

Baton Rouge to the Superdome on a deserted highway at 100 mph is over an hour and a half drive. Why do I mention this? Am I just being belligenrent? No, I'm making a point about most of your assertions. They are simply wrong and you're buying someone's propaganda hook, line, and sinker. The disaster relief effort I see is one of the most massive and unbelievable efforts I've ever witnessed. And therein lies the problem. The sheer magnitude of the devastation blew away anything we've ever had in place to relieve it. Now who's fault is that? I blame it on Katrina myself but then I am just an ignorant truck driver so what do I know? And yes, I went through Camille when I was a boy and Katrina beat that one all hollow!

Could the response have been quicker from the outside? Only if the entire Atlantic Fleet was in the Gulf! There just simply are not enough assets to throw into something so massive. The Coast Guard was maxed out inside of 12 hours. No ground support could even get in for 72 to 96 hours so where did that leave us? Uh-huh! Local assets that were not available due to lack of planning at the local and state levels. Plus the sheer size of the devastation destroyed the bulk of local assets anyway.

There was NO waiting to try to reach people. The Feds activated FEMA two days before the storm struck but were rebuked at the state level at every turn. Why is that? Simply because of the hatred displayed by one side of the aisle in this country today. People died while politics were being played and the Feds had one option and one option only left them. That would be to declare Federal Martial Law! Now, seeing the reaction there is now to what is blantantly being lied about and called a massive failure, where exactly do you think it would've gone if the Feds forcibly took over? Uh-huh!

I'm still blown away that the sheer size of this response is being screamed from the rafters as being "late" and "not enough". The logisitcs of the entire scenario were overwhelming but they still got done! Funny how that works! You are NOT talking about a 50 mile path of destruction here. It's much bigger than that. You have TOTAL destruction in so many areas it's mind boggling. New Orleans WAS NOT the ONLY area hit. They were the ONLY area that were imploding and feeding on themselves. Assets were sitting directly across the bridge from the Superdome but were not allowed to be distributed and that was a state decision. Clearance avenues were opened within five days and that is just simply how long it took. Bigger avenues were opened daily from the originals.

Yes, Wal*Mart did a hellova' job and should be applauded. So did about SIXTY THOUSAND other folks! None of them, Wal*Mart included, ask for anything other than maybe a "thank-you". What did they get in return? Ask your buddy Scarborough! He'll be proud to denigrate the relief effort further!

Natural disaster relief depends on INDIVIDUAL, LOCAL, and STATE assets for the first 72 to 96 hours. What part of that is so hard to comprehend? That is where the fingers should point but curiously they are not. And you wonder why this country is so divided? When playing politics that cost American lives mean more than saving those same American lives then something if succinctly out of whack! But then, learning from my experience of being the father of a warfighter, it's nothing new and has been going on for the past three to four years. Maybe one day the Left will wake up and see that everything in the entire universe is not an entitlement and just sometimes folks have to look out for and rely on themselves! The GOVERNMENT isn't the solution to self-reliance. Government is big, clanky, and cumbersome. It takes time to get it's wheels turning simply due to the size and scope of the logistics to do so. Dependency on government will get you killed when it is in the best interests of the citizens to take care of themselves. Once the wheels turn then it turns out OK. It is no one's responsibility to do for you what you should already be doing for yourself. But even then you cannot drive a truck over a twnety foot tree or over a bridge that doesn't exist. I do not know how to make it any clearer than that!

Remove the politics of this whole scenario and what have you got? Amazing to think about isn't it?
 
Doesn't it concern you when a guy like Joe Scarborough, has this to say:...

No. That would be because he's an airhead jackass without a clue about logistics.
 
Thanks JarheadDad for keeping it real and keeping it civil. Like I said above, my hat's off to all of you on the ground getting the job done. Really.

I could get all defensive and point out, again, that I'm not blaming everything on the feds, or playing the race card. Not me. Plenty of folks are. But not me. What I want is accountability and a proper investigation. I don't see why that is so hard to swallow.

Enough already. Let's end this little discussion with a little harmony, OK?

"Remove the politics of this whole scenario and what have you got? Amazing to think about isn't it?"

Amen to that.
 
KC:
Whre we disagree involves the politics of it.

You believe an investigation will be a panacea, will get rid of the political bs involved in all of this.

I maintain just the opposite. That an investigation will mean even more political grandstanding, and will teach us little we don't find out without an official investigation.

The lessons of Katrina are all to clear to those paying attention.

(1) Be prepared to be on your own for 72 to 96 hours. Water, food, batteries, fuel, probably a gun
(2) Elect local govt and state leaders who are competent and responsible

As for the various out-of-state responders, no doubt they'll be examining what they could do different. No doubt they'll be even better when the next disaster strikes. Seems to me that there has been a learning curve since Andrew in 92, and that responses keep getting better at the federal level, and in states like Fla that learned lessons of earlier hurricanes. Long may it continue.
 
I agree with most items, but have a question on item #3.

3. You cannot speed recovery and relief efforts up by prepositioning assets since the assets are endangered by the very storm which destroyed the region.

Isn't this a commmand level judgment call? The Corps of Engineers had their contractors pre-position equipment in NO because of post-storm accessibility concerns. Mississippi pre-positioned some units on the coast for more rapid response. Do some commanders accept more risk than others?
 
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